vol 276. Bondage of Self with Kian

SPEAKER_02 0:01 We believe that alcoholism is a disease and that Alcoholics Anonymous is one solution to that disease. I'm here to bring you the voices of its members. Everyone that comes on the show, including myself, is an active member and has found recovery in the rooms of AA. As you listen, please take what works for you and leave the rest.

SPEAKER_00 0:53 So I grew up in Southern California in a small town called Rossmore, a little suburban area. I grew up with an immigrant father. And I lived a pretty like normal childhood. But what happened for me was as I got into Alcoholics Autonomous and learned about my disease, I realized that fear had ran my life for as long as I could remember.

From a young age, I always wanted to fit in. I know a lot of people talk about how they felt different. I definitely relate to that. And I felt that if I could just blend in with other people, then everything would be okay.

That fear would eventually lead me to a place at 13 years old where I would have my first drink/slash drug. Um drugs are a part of my story. I know this is Alcoholics Anonymous, but I it is a part of my story. I get to my friend's house, I had two buddies, and uh they were acting weird, they were giggling, and and their eyes were red, and it was smelled weird.

And I asked them what they were doing, and they're like, Oh, we're smoking weed, you should have some. And I wanted to fit in. So I tried. I remember being giggly and laughing and feeling a part of.

And from that point on, it's not like I was getting loaded every day, but uh I definitely liked the effect that it produced, you know. And uh, we would start drinking and smoking weed. And throughout high school, I wanted to have fun with my friends. That that was the goal for me.

I liked the feeling that drugs and alcohol produced in me. They released me of that fear and they released me of the bondage of self. I I didn't suffer a lot of consequences. I was somewhat smart in what I was doing, and um, I got in trouble a couple of times with my parents, but nothing crazy.

After experimenting with a lot of drugs and alcohol through high school, I I eventually went to college. I went to the University of Arizona. And um, for me, I'm someone who doesn't like change, right? Like when I graduated, I thought I'd just kind of stick around here because I don't like to change my environment.

And uh a buddy of mine had also gotten accepted, so we decided to take a little leap of faith and go. What I've learned now is that this is a progressive disease, right? And so I get to this new state and this newfound freedom, and it's it's on for me. And I'm drinking and getting loaded pretty much every day for the next three or four years, and it was fun.

Like I had a lot of fun for a lot of time. The last two years really weren't as much fun. You know, I ended up getting a girlfriend at the time, and that's when my disease really just started to get bad. I found myself lying about everything, cheating, stealing, crossing lines that like I never thought I would because I needed to get loaded.

Waking up every day telling myself that I'm not gonna get loaded, and then justifying and rationalizing two hours later why I could, you know, and go into bed that night and uh doing it all over again. And they talk about like the vicious cycle, and for me that was it, right? For two years just telling myself that I can't do this and waking up in the morning and having to do it again. A big moment for me was it was about my junior year of college.

I was pretty strung out on prescription narcotics and booze, and I decided to check myself into a detox. It was halfway between Phoenix and Tucson, and I was driving there and I was crying the whole way. I had my thumb on the phone trying to call my dad, but uh I just didn't have the heart to do it. I didn't have the heart to tell my dad that his son was a junkie who couldn't stay sober for longer than two hours.

I eventually get to that detox, you know, and it's it's not fun going through withdrawal, and my parents come and uh I tell them I'm all good after five days of detox, right? Like I feel better. What happens for me is the same thing that happens every time after I get away from the drink just for a little bit, is um I will justify why I can drink again. And on the drive home, I I had dropped my parents off at their hotel, and on the way back to my house, I had stopped to get drugs and alcohol.

That's a pretty crazy place to be for me, to think that I'm okay, and then like one thought changes everything. For me, that's when I knew I was pretty screwed, and uh I would spend the next year doing shady things to get loaded, and uh really just not liking who I was and living in a lot of shame and guilt. I would try every day to get sober and I couldn't do it. My first AA meeting was in Tucson.

A friend of mine who was doing what I was doing said that he had found Alcoholics Anonymous and that uh he had a sponsor and that I should come check it out. And of course, like uh any normal human being, I got loaded before the meeting because I was too scared to go sober. And I don't remember much that was said in that meeting. All I remember is I couldn't wait to get out of there when it was done.

I left and continued to get loaded for another six months. I graduated college and um I had two options at that point. Um I had gotten a job in Phoenix at a small tech startup, and they were gonna pay me more money than you know I was making at the time. And uh I could either do that and and leave my family and my friends and go and do my own thing, or my parents had offered to put me into a rehab, right?

And so I decided to take the rehab option and the day after my 22nd birthday, I was driven down to Incinitas, went to an inpatient facility. For me, like a lot of people say, they get here, you know, and they get into AA and they just start doing their thing. And and for me, I didn't get better when I got sober, right? For me, you take the drugs and the alcohol away, and I get much, much worse.

I stayed in that place for 30 days and uh went to a sober living, and they reintroduced me to Alcoholics Anonymous. And for me, I went into AA and I and I didn't really trust what a lot of people had to say. You know, they would say they had 10, 15 years sober, and I thought that's there's no way that's true. That's crazy.

But I related to the people who were trudging with me, right? The people who had 10 days sober, 15 days sober, 20 days sober. That seemed attainable to me. I ended up becoming friends with a couple of guys in there, and and and they were sold on Alcoholics Anonymous, so I kind of hung around with them, right?

They were the winners. We would hop around from meeting to meeting. A part of me was still one foot in, one foot out at about 60 days sober. I was 22.

I didn't know anybody who was sober. I didn't know it was possible. Without knowing it, I had done my first step by accepting that I was totally screwed, right? Like right before I went into rehab, I hit a place of complete hopelessness and realized that I would have to continue to drink and use for the rest of my life.

In that surrender, I found acceptance, right? At 60 Days Sober, there was a guy. He was my buddy's brother. He had actually given me my first narcotic ever back when I was in high school.

And I hadn't seen him in about five years, but I knew he was sober. I ran into him at the gym, which was interesting because people were telling me I should get a sponsor, but I thought the concept of getting a sponsor was pretty weird, right? Like talking to some guy every day and talking about my feelings. But I had ran into him randomly and he looked different.

He was physically like in better shape than I last saw him, but he had this presence among him. And what I know that to be today is peace. He had a peace and a sense of like God with him. I asked him what he what he had done to change, and he said, you know, I go to AA and I and I do that.

And I was like, oh wow. And I was too scared to ask him to sponsor me right then and there. So I asked my buddy for his brother's number the next day, and I called him and I said, Hey man, like I'm 60 days sober. I'm not doing well and I need help.

And this then took me through the steps. And um the steps are one of the most beautiful experiences I've I've ever had in my life. For me, he was like the tangible thing that allowed me to, you know, people were saying I needed to like find God, that God was my solution. And I come from a family that isn't religious and I'd never thought about anything other than myself.

So that solution seemed really far out to me. But I believed that whatever my sponsor was doing, what had happened to him, I needed to know how he got from point A to point B. It was something tangible. So I started with blind faith in him, right?

That whatever process worked for him could possibly work for me. And uh once a week I'd go to his house and we'd read out of the book, and he'd give me a step, and I'd go home and do it. The first three steps were interesting for me for sure, and we got to that fourth step, right? That everyone I had heard was so afraid of.

But I was all in at this point. I knew I needed help and I knew that this was the solution for me. And so I went home and it took me about a month, and I wrote down all my resentments and my fears list and my sex inventory. I sat down with him for my fifth step, you know, and he it was, you know, people had been telling me my whole life, like you should do it this way, and this needs to be done, and why can't you stop drinking?

And why are you doing this? And he never said any of those things to me, you know. He just sat down and he laughed and he related and he told me some stories of himself, and and he never judged me. And he also told me that this is for you.

We don't care whether you are here or not, you know what I mean? Like you can either come or go, like it's up to you. And and that's the almost always been the greatest thing for me about AA is we will love you till you can love yourself, but you it's your choice whether you want to stay or go. And I and I really like that.

We do that fifth step, you know, and he tells me to go home afterwards and um to just sit by myself for an hour. And I had what the book refers to as a spiritual experience, right? I cried for about an hour after not crying for years and years, and um I felt this heaviness lifted from me. And I didn't know what it was then, you know, but I know today that that was a spiritual experience.

And for me, a spiritual experience simplified is just a change of perspective. You know, my perspective had shifted. I was no longer a victim, I was no longer a m you know, a martyr. I wasn't trying to make people feel sorry for me.

I I I owned up for the things that I had done in this life. You know, it was a really beautiful experience, and I got really involved in AA after that, right? I was down in in in Laguna Beach and I was doing a lot of meetings there. And what happened for me is I I eventually moved back a little further up north back back home.

I went to one meeting in Long Beach and it was terrible. And so I I just said, oh, AA and Long Beach must suck. So I just didn't go back. For the next three or four months, I would have what I call a spiritual death, right?

I had had this beautiful spiritual experience by doing the steps, and then I stopped doing the things that got me there. Um, I stopped, you know, going to meetings and I was kind of more about self and I stopped reading the book and helping others. And uh I have never felt worse in my entire life to be dry, to have a spiritual experience, and then to be dry. You know, it was worse than any time that I had loaded because at least when I'm loaded, I have a solution, right?

Um, in this stage, I was about a year and a half sober and I had no solution, and I knew I couldn't drink, but and I knew that whatever I was doing wasn't working. It's that fork in the road that people talk about all the time. Things got really dark for me, and I I've never been a suicidal person, but I knew that I understood why people get there, right? My head's just too loud, and there's no booze to calm it down, and there's no drugs to calm it down.

And without God or a spiritual life, I can't, I can't go on. And lucky for me, you know, I had I had a decent amount of friends at that time that were sober, and I called a buddy of mine and I told him, like, hey man, like I'm I'm just really not doing well, and I need I need help. I had to re-surrender again at a year and a half sober. And he was like, All right, man, I go to this uh this men's meeting.

There's a lot of good guys, come check it out with me. And I walked into that meeting and introduced myself and said, My name is Keon, and I'm an alcoholic, and I have a year and a half sober, and I'm have no idea what I'm doing, and I need help. And those guys saved my life. You know, they became some of my best friends today.

Um, I go to that meeting every Tuesday night. It was a big book study, men's stag. They taught me like how to live life again, you know, how to believe in God and and and do all the stuff on a daily basis to live this like happy, joyous, and free life. And for the last seven or eight years now, I've never wanted to feel the way I felt in that moment.

And so I just continue to do the things that I need to do. There's a lot that goes on between like that point and the point now, right? We're at the what happened stage, you know. Um, I had that spiritual experience.

The closeness that I felt with God on those like first couple years sober, you know, like that was my new high. And I chased that. The feeling of being at peace, the feeling of being comfortable with myself, not having to like use in order to regulate my emotions. Because for me, I like to be able to regulate my emotional state.

You know, I like to be able to suppress it and to not feel because for me, feelings are scary. When I get too overwhelmed, I want to, I want to change that feeling instead of working through it. And so what happens is is uh probably seven or eight of us get really close. And for the next couple of years, I I do AA, you know, six days a week, and I've got commitments, and I'm and uh I end up moving into my own place and buying a car, and like all these really beautiful things happen for me in my life.

At about three years sober, I meet a girl, right? I meet the girl, fall in love, and uh, she was recently sober, and I had three years. I get to have an experience with that, right? We go back and forth for like a couple of years, you know, and um and the relationship like taught me a lot, taught me about patience and and and a whole lot of other things that I had learned from the steps, you know, and got to put them into real life.

That ended up ending and and I was in a really like dark place afterwards. Cause for me, like uh heartbreak and and love and and those really heavy feelings are the really hard for me to to comprehend and to go through, just like anybody else, you know. But I really take those things to heart. And so um once again, at about five years sober, I have to reinvest myself back into AA, right?

And if you're listening, you know, if you're following along, that seems to be a pattern, right? I get really into AA, and then whatever AA gives me takes me away from AA, and then I kind of put myself back into it. So at five years sober, I start going to new meetings, I get a new sponsor, and I rework my steps, which I was really afraid for, right? Like um, I was scared to do the work again, but I knew that I had to.

And so um I sit down and do the work again with another man, right? And to have that experience to like open oneself up to another man and like share all my deepest, darkest secrets, you know, it it really builds this crazy bond, right? It's just me, him, and God, and we're going through the book and we're learning about each other. And uh it's really, really a beautiful thing for me.

And um, that man still sponsors me today. I get to have like another eye-opening experience inside of Alcoholics Anonymous, you know. Fast forward another couple years, you know. Life gets weird when I stay sober long enough.

Um, that's like the best way that I can put it is that things get strange. And uh, you know, I I never understood why people like would go out after having so much time. I've seen people go out after 10 years, 15 years, whether it was by bottle or or suicide. And and I never understood it until like very recently, right?

That like the longer I stay away from the drink, the trickier the obsession gets. You know, for me, I know that this thing is in the center of my mind. That's where it starts. God, man, like Alcoholics Anonymous give me a really beautiful life, and I and I do really well in business and with a lot of other things in my life.

But when it comes to like relationships and the noise in my head, the only thing that has ever lifted it is helping others and being of service and getting out of self. And for me, that is that has never changed, but like I I think that I change and that I don't need those things anymore. But yeah, like what my life looks like today is you know, I have nine years sober today. Um I spent most of my 20s growing up inside of Alcoholics Anonymous, making every mistake known to mankind.

Um I live a really beautiful life. I have a you know a beautiful home and like a whole bunch of nice stuff, right? And like a good relationship with my parents. But for me, the most important part of my life since I got sober has been the friendships that I've made inside of AA and the friendships that I've had for even years before that.

I've always felt different than my family. You know, they're they're really good people, really nice, but I've just never been able to open up and confide in them like I have with the people that I've met in AA and and my friendships I've had before. You know, it's a beautiful thing to go through life like that for me. Like I don't want to be on my deathbed and be like, oh, I didn't buy the new iPhone or I didn't get that car, you know.

Like I want my only regret to be is that like I didn't spend enough time with the people that I care about. And yeah, AA is a crazy place, you know, like there's no other place on earth where if you walk into an AA meeting, there's there are people that wouldn't normally mix, is what the book talks about, right? And sometimes I look around the room and I'm like, fuck man, like I I love the people that are in this room, but I would never have hung out with them if it wasn't for Alcoholics Anonymous, you know. We all get one like uh we have one thing in common, and that's that we don't want to drink or use anymore.

And that's what keeps this thing afloat. It's really a a beautiful thing. Uh because I know for me, when I came in, I had no idea what to expect about Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, I had never been to a meeting, my my my family members weren't sober.

I didn't know anybody, I didn't even know it was a thing that you could be sober. I guess that was a blessing because I came in with a little bit more of an open mind, probably. But yeah, there's a couple other things I'll I'll touch on about my story. There was a time when I was, I probably had about three years sober.

And there was uh me and my buddy were out one night on a Duffy. He had gotten a call from a friend of his that her her brother was in the hospital with another OD yet again, right? I drop him off and he goes to the hospital and and does what we do, right? Talks talks to somebody when they're their most hopeless.

And the next day, him and another buddy of mine take him around looking at places, government-funded places for inpatient and stuff like that. And uh they got him into a place. So my buddy asked me, you know, hey, I'm really close to the situation. Will you sponsor him?

And I said, of course. And I go, his name was Chase, and I go and meet him. And he was one of the first sponsees. I had had maybe five or six sponsees, you know, who did the steps one through three dance, you know, but he really wanted to get sober.

And I remember I would pick him up from the Salvation Army and to and we would read before and and go over step work, and I would take him to a meeting, you know, and sponsoring another person is also one of the most beautiful things that I've experienced in AA, being able to give this thing back and to and to share my experience with others. And uh he stayed sober for about seven or eight months, and and and one day he had relapsed, you know, and we got him into another place, and then he ended up in a psych ward. And one of the most profound things I've experienced is he had called me when he got out. I went and picked him up, and we got in the car, and he said he had tried to call his mom and he had tried to call his dad and he had tried to call friends and nobody would answer the phone in that and that I was the only one that picked up.

And um he went to a buddy of mine's house, and uh I get a phone call a couple weeks later that that he had OD'd and he had died, and that is um something that happens way more often than it should, but I think uh just being here for long enough, it kind of just becomes like a way of of things happening, right? Like I'm surprised when people stay sober. Sometimes I'm surprised even I'm sober. You know, that experience taught me a lot, right?

That no one is immune from this thing, that at any given time I could decide to pick up a drink and the drink takes me. I've been to a lot of beautiful weddings, I've I've been to a lot of funerals, you know, I've seen a lot of people pass away from the disease of alcoholism. And uh I don't know if it gets any easier, but it it kind of like I'm kind of just like numb to it because it's kind of just like the passing parade, as one of my friends likes to call it, right? I get to sit into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the people that want help get help, and the people who don't will continue to do whatever they want to do.

Yeah, I mean, what watching people pass away from this thing is is definitely not fun. But um, I know for me, when I first got here, I thought my life was over. You know, I was a 22-year-old kid, and I thought never drinking or doing drugs again was like the end all be all, right? I was gonna be like a grumpy old man inside of AA and just like my life was over.

Come to find out, I've had more fun inside of Alcoholics Anonymous than I've ever had before. Drinking and partying, yeah, it's a good time. It's fun, but waking up the next day, rehashing, oh, what happened and who did what? And like, I don't remember, and I blacked out.

It's fun for a while until like there's I wake up in the morning and no one's there, right? Because I've just been drinking by myself all night or using by myself all night. And and nobody thinks it's cute anymore because I'm not a kid. And for me, it gets it gets dark really fast.

I know that today because um it even gets dark for me when I'm sober, right? It actually gets darker for me when I'm sober, because again, if I'm not using the solution that's in the book, which is helping others, praying and um doing the step work, then I have no solution and things get really crazy for me. Yeah. I mean, the the the change that I've experienced while while I've been here is is beyond anything I could have thought of, right?

Like I came in here really entitled. Um, I thought the world owed me something. My entire perspective was so delusional and so far off. And today, like my my perspective is like centered with God, right?

Like I had this spiritual experience, which I'll talk about more, I guess. When I came in here, I really thought that I was the center of the universe, that I was the end-all be all. I made fun of religion, I thought it was silly. For me, like I need to experience it, right?

Like I would hear, I was listening to people at meetings talk about their experience. It wasn't enough, right? Like I needed to have the experience myself. And I can only have the experience when I truly surrender and I truly get into enough pain.

The pain is an incredible motivator for me. You know, you get me uncomfortable enough and I'm willing to do whatever. That's been true throughout my entire sobriety, right? Like I get here beaten up, torn up, just just so helpless and wanting help.

And then you give me some stuff back, you know, and you give me some sanity, and uh I'll I'll I'll stop doing the things that helped me in the first place. And I and for me, my experience has been is that I've learned that lesson over and over and over again over the last nine years. And it's usually about the same thing. But as I get but as I get more time sober, I'm just less willing to sit in those uncomfortable pockets.

I I don't want to sit in there and and to feel that pain anymore. And yeah, I mean the the changes that I've had have been really they're all they're all alcoholics anonymous in God. I've simply just showed up and like done the work. So I feel like I went through that pretty fast.

SPEAKER_02 24:17 You did, but that's okay. I have questions. SPEAKER_00 24:22 Okay, cool. SPEAKER_02 24:23 Thank you, Kian.

It's Kean. SPEAKER_00 24:25 Keon, yeah. SPEAKER_02 24:26 Keon. Okay.

All right, Keon, thank you very much. I think it's amazing that you got sober at 22. What is your experience with young people's groups, if you have any, or just events and kind of this fun you were talking about? SPEAKER_00 24:48 For me, um, when I got here, I really liked the old timers.

You know, I like the old guys because I felt like the younger kids my age were like in it for the wrong reasons, or I saw a lot of shady, sketchy stuff, and like the old guys kind of just held it down and they and they were real, and they just told me to sit down and shut up and like you don't know anything yet, and just listen to the book and listen to the speaker. I didn't get into any like wacky paw or like any of like the young people's stuff, but I did meet a group of people that were my age, and we were all had about the same amount of time, and so we would just take trips and like every night we would go to a meeting and go to dinner afterwards, and it it really felt like every night I was with my people, and and we would stay out late, you know, and we'd be at like a diner at two o'clock in the morning after like a late night meeting. It was a really fun time in my life, but yeah, I I never did any of the young people's events. I know people that did, and they say it's a lot of fun, but for me, like I had found my tribe and and and we just kind of rolled around.

SPEAKER_02 25:49 How is that different today? What does it look like today? SPEAKER_00 25:52 Today it's a little bit different. We've all been sober for a while.

Some of my friends have wife and kids, they've moved different places. I just helped a buddy of mine move to Colorado with his wife and their beautiful son. And and I guess just by getting older, right? It's just a natural thing.

People get older and we just don't see each other as much, which I heard from other people, the older crew that was in there before me, that that would happen. But of course, when you're young, you think things will stay the same forever. But just like anything else, things change and and we adapt and and and meet new people and and try and do new things. SPEAKER_02 26:26 Are you currently in one of your dark places you mentioned?

SPEAKER_00 26:31 I'm currently freshly out of one of the dark places. I recently went through a breakup that rocked me pretty good. And I realized that there's been a serious pattern in my life, and I decided to go and get outside help and do therapy, which has been like a really cool experience, right? For me, like AA has helped me with so many things.

But for me, I didn't really look at like my childhood that much just because when I got into the rooms, I heard a lot of fucked up things about a lot of other families. So I kind of was like, oh yeah, my family was pretty cool. But I realize now that like all families have shit going on. I've learned a lot about why I am the way I am, why I operate the way I operate.

I know for me, like step work really cleared up, kind of was like cleared up some stuff, but the work I'm doing now is really like another level to that, right? And they talk about in the book continuing to try and get closer to God and having a spiritual way of life. And for me, this is just like another way of trying to do that. But yeah, I mean for me, like I seem to have these dark patterns of going dark for three, four months, and then I know for me, like in the beginning, like it was all blind faith, right?

Like I had just blind faith that it had to, you know, something was gonna change. And today I have a lot of experience that if I trust in God's plan, everything's gonna work out the way it's supposed to. SPEAKER_02 27:50 I think that is quite amazing to have that come out of you when you just said not that long ago that you grew up with no faith at all. Um so that seems like a a lot of progress in nine years.

You had mentioned the steps being the most beautiful experience ever, or something to that effect. And then you talked about going into I think around five years you got a new sponsor to you got a new sponsor and you're gonna rework the steps. And you said you were so scared to do the work again. Can you help us understand if your experience was so beautiful the first time?

What was the fear factor on the second round? SPEAKER_00 28:36 Yeah, definitely. Just the way my brain works is like I kind of just either remember the bad or only the good parts, you know. And so I I I know that the steps had work and I knew that the steps had changed my life, but it wasn't an easy process, right?

It was probably the for sure the most difficult thing that I had done in my life, right? Was to be vulnerable, be honest, especially with another human being, you know. And so, you know, I had gotten comfortable at that point at like five years sober. And for me, like when I started to do my steps the first time, I was really willing because I was in a lot of pain.

And so when I changed sponsors and I decided to have a new experience, I guess I was a little less willing, right? I get a little bit more comfortable. But the fear was there, right? Over those five years, I knew I had done things that scared me before and that I was looking for the experience that came afterwards, right?

Which is the peace and the calm and that stuff. But you know, in order to get there, for me, I gotta like there's work to be done. I gotta push through and write stuff down and talk to other people and find out what what the what the issue is. SPEAKER_02 29:38 Yeah.

I have a follow-up question, but before I get there, let me back up. You talked us through to step five. You uh elaborated a bit on your experience up to step five. Would you mind since we have ample time to talk us through your experience of the rest of the steps?

And my second part of the question is if you have any significant different experience with the second time you went through. SPEAKER_00 30:06 Oh yeah, definitely. So yeah, I mean, after five, we write down the list of my shortcomings and my character defects, you know, and and the list is long, much longer than I thought it would be. And I got to pray on those every night.

Of course, there was a time when I was nearly sober where I, you know, I prayed for them to be away one night, you know, then I just went about my day. But come to find out after experience and making mistakes that those character defects never leave me, right? They're they're a part of me, and I have to one, pray about them and and two, pray for the willingness to be able to change them and not live in those. That's a good question.

Cause for me, I forgot to mention the amends process was also really cool for me. I know I got super young. I didn't have a lot of amends to make. As I was going through AA, I would people came in at 40, 50, 60 years old.

And like, you know, I I can't the amends list is huge, which is very daunting. But mine was decently sized, and all of mine went really well for the most part, except for one. My ex-girlfriend from college didn't want anything to do with me or to hear from me. So I went to my sponsor and I said, hey, like she doesn't want to talk to me.

And he's like, Okay, you're not gonna mess with this girl any more than you've had in the past. And uh, as long as you're willing to make this amends when the time comes, we'll wait to see what happens, you know. In about two years sober, she had reached out to a friend of mine asking how I was doing. And that seemed like my window of opportunity.

And so I called her and I had made amends to her, you know, and we had like a 45-minute talk and it and it went really well, right? Um, and I was so scared before because she was the one person who had seen me at my worst and dealt with me the whole time. And she was just like, I'm happy you're sober and doing good. And I was like, wow, okay, cool.

And for me, the amends process, it's not for me, it is for me, but it's like mostly for the other people that I've harmed. Because when I was getting loaded, I caused a lot of harm to a lot of people that really cared about me. So that was like a cool nine-step experience. As far as 10, 11, and 12 go, I didn't realize how important 10 was until I was a few years sober, how important that nightly inventory is.

Because for me, I don't personally like doing a four-step, you know, it's not like on my top list of fun things to do. And if I'm vigilant with that 10-step and watching where I'm making mistakes throughout the day and seeing where those character defects come up, then I can address them the next day instead of waiting three years and allowing them to manifest into resentment. That 11th step for me, um, like I said, I had never prayed until I got sober, I had never prayed ever. We got to my third step, and my sponsor was like, Yeah, you gotta go home and pray.

And I was like, What does that look like? And he's like, I can't tell you what it looks like. I just want you to go home and have a conversation with whatever you believe in. So I get home and I get on my knees and I'm like, hey, God, or whatever, you know, like my sponsor told me to do this, and so I'm gonna do it.

Come to find out, like, it really wasn't in the words, it was in the action, right? The the action taken was the experience. And I went back to him and he was like, All right, do it again. Keep doing it.

And over the nine years I've been sober, you know, I pray at night and I thank God for another day sober. And I pray when I get up in the morning and ask God to help me out through my day and remove me from the bondage of self. Again, that happens with just I had blind faith, right? That whatever I was talking to was gonna work.

And and through year weeks and months and years of doing that, I have this untethered faith that God will have my back no matter what. And that's just through making mistakes and learning from them and being honest. For me, that 12th step, you know, I sponsor a couple guys now. I've had some really cool experiences with sponsorship.

Like I said, I've had sponsees die, I've had sponsees just you get up and vanish. The two guys I sponsor right now are still sober, which is like really, really cool. Since we have time, I'll tell you a story about one of my sponsees. I was at a trip uh Lake Havasi with a couple of my friends from college.

I probably had like six years sober at the time, and I had known this guy, and I had seen him a few years before, and he was, you know, partying and getting messed up. And he comes on this trip, and all these guys go out to the bars, and and me and him sit back and uh I share my experience of what sobriety looks like to back up a little bit. My friend had told me that he was struggling, right, with with booze and with drugs. And so I sit down and I just honestly share my experience with him.

And uh we talked for about two hours that night, and I go to bed and I wake up in the morning and I have my morning coffee out on the patio, and uh he comes up to me and he's like, Hey, I'm checking myself into rehab and like I want to get sober. And I was like, What? What do you mean? And he was like, dude, like our your convert, our conversation last night, like I need to get sober.

Like I've already I did the booking last night. Like, what do I do? And I was like, Oh, well, like that's awesome. You will go to rehab and like I'll show you what AA's like.

And he was like, All right, like, what's up with the sponsorship thing? And I was like, Oh, you just find someone like you like and relate to and ask them to take you through the steps, you know? And he was like, Will you sponsor me? And I was like, Yeah, sure.

That was a crazy experience, right? That like just spending the time and sharing my experience with another alcoholic allowed this to unfold, right? And God had seen to put me on this trip with a bunch of people who weren't sober, you know, on like a Memorial Day weekend in order for that to happen. And he's still sober today, you know, and we have a really cool relationship.

So promises of the 12th stuff is for my experience. SPEAKER_02 35:40 I like that. I like that. I was gonna ask if he was still sober because that's you know what the listeners want to know.

SPEAKER_00 35:49 Oh, yeah, no, yeah. He had he had one relapse, like, you know, in between like uh like nine months, you know. He like uh he was in Hawaii and uh his wife had messaged me, like, he keeps going to these smoke shops and getting this stuff called Kratom. I was like, oh okay, you know, let him do his thing.

And uh he called me two days later and was honest and confessed. And so we got a new he got a new sobriety day and uh and we worked the steps again, and so he's got three years sober now and a beautiful son and another son on the way. And those experiences are so cool to me because for me, like all I did was share my experience and then take an hour out of my day once a week just to read with this guy, and God does the rest, which is really cool. SPEAKER_02 36:32 You talked about your faith.

You talked about actually you said untethered faith. Do you have untethered faith when you're in those dark places? SPEAKER_00 36:41 Uh surprisingly, yes. I know that it's gonna be okay deep down, but on the surface, my brain likes to really ruminate on the bad and the shame and the guilt.

From a very young age, shame, guilt, and fear have ran my entire life, you know, which is like the perfect concoction for an alcoholic. Because when I when I drink and do drugs, those things no longer run my life anymore. And so through the steps and now recently getting some outside help and going to therapy, I really get to find, all right, like those are the key things that that move me and that I'm trying to operate in a different space. Those, those shame, fear, and guilt are all self, right?

They're all when I'm just about like in my own head and thinking about myself. And when I get to have experiences, you know, sit across from another man and read the big book, or or just be of service in any way, whether it's you know, an HI panel at the Psych Ward or sharing my experience, like there's no place for that to fester anymore. SPEAKER_02 37:42 So that's encouraging. I I asked you earlier what your program looks like, but logistically, you have a full-time job, you have a program.

What does like an average week look like? SPEAKER_00 37:56 It's it's changed over the years, right? Like I've done six meetings a week, I've done no meetings, I've done two meetings. For me, currently, right now, I'm at two meetings a week and and being honest and open and talking to my sponsor on a weekly basis.

And also just like um like I had mentioned earlier, there's this psychoard panel that my buddy has that I get to go on once a month with him. I'm not as involved in AA as I once was, but I think I'm I'm spending a lot more time trying to take the principles and the things that I've learned from the steps and apply them to my life outside of Alcoholics Anonymous. Because I know for me, like I feel really safe in an AA room. It's the safest place for me.

You know, all my mistakes come when I'm outside of an AA meeting, you know. So yeah, I mean for me, like it it kind of ebbs and flows on like how I'm doing and and and how I'm feeling. But for me, more AA is never never a problem. You know, like whether I'm whether I'm in a good place or in a bad place, doing more AA has never brought me any sort of ill will.

It always makes me feel better. SPEAKER_02 39:02 I think that's quotable. That's good. SPEAKER_00 39:04 Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:07 All right. Is there anything that you left out that you would like to share? And you can pause and see if anything surfaces. SPEAKER_00 39:17 All right.

Yeah, I mean, like the questions had brought up definitely some spaces that I had missed. I always talk real fast whenever I do these things and never space it out enough. My parents are are very loving, very kind, very caring people, you know. My my father is was born in Iran and my mother's half Persian, and and so I grew up a little bit different than or I felt different than others, right?

I remember trying to explain to my dad what the concept of a sleepover was to spend the night at like a friend's house, you know. He's like, What are you talking about? Like you have a bed here, like why would you go spend the night at someone's house? Like that's crazy.

And so, like, I kind of I have a little brother too, so I kind of like paved the way, you know, for like for him and being like, No, this is kind of this is a normal thing. And just um for me and like most Middle Eastern families, it's it's not as like open and like emotional, you know. Like my parents are extremely loving and caring people, but like the idea of being open and raw and vulnerable just like isn't a thing, you know. And so I learned from like a young age to become an avoidant.

So I'd rather just deal with it myself and go to my room and deal with it how I want to deal with it. And I learned that around like seven or eight. So when I was introduced to drugs and alcohol at 13, I was like, this is perfect. This is my way of dealing with whatever's going on on the inside.

But yeah, I mean, even for me today, I'll always love drugs and alcohol. You know, I remember I used to say when I got sober, like I love drugs and alcohol more than I love my own mother. It was it was the perfect solution for everything in my life. And um, like most people talk about, there just came a point where it stopped working, right?

Like I wasn't able to numb myself anymore. And um, that's when like things get scary, you know, when that solution stops working for me. And I'm and I'm faced to come to the last house on the block, right? SPEAKER_02 41:06 I suspect they're proud of you.

SPEAKER_00 41:08 Yes, they're very proud. I get to see them a lot. I have a good relationship with them today. That wasn't the case when I was young, right?

You know, my mother would tell me that uh my mom's not a religious person at all, but she would pray for me at night because I was in Arizona and they were here in California, and she would pray that she wouldn't get a phone call at four o'clock in the morning, you know, from the cops saying her son was arrested or had OD'd and died, because they knew I was using at that point. And when I remember when my mom told me that, I was I was newly sober and I was in outpatient, and the case manager lady had like brought my parents in, and I was like, I don't want to deal with this, you know. And um, I was really numb. I didn't have any feeling, I didn't show any emotion when I got here.

And uh I remember I got really angry. I was like, I don't want to hear this. Why did you bring them in here? You know, like I had no empathy for anybody but myself.

I remember they had left and and I was going off on her, and she was like she had a smile on her face. And I was like, What do you mean? And why are you smiling? She was like, What do you feel right now?

And I was like, I feel pissed, I feel anger. And she was like, That's the first emotion you've showed since you've been here, you know. And for her, that was a good sign. And I kind of took a step back and realized that's the first real feeling that I've had since I had gotten sober, you know, because I was so numb.

There was a few people in my early sobriety who really didn't give up on me. My house manager, this woman who was my case manager, and my sponsor. They could tell that I was kind of half in, half out, and they could have easily just been like, all right, go do whatever you want. But they took the time out of their day to work with me, to listen to me, to help me.

And so for me, like now, like I feel like I have a responsibility to give that back to the people that are new. My time is my greatest asset, same with my pain and experience. They talk about it somewhere in the book that like my the the worst times of my life are like my greatest asset now. And I really relate to that.

SPEAKER_02 43:05 That's easy to say when you're not in a worse time. SPEAKER_00 43:08 Yes. Exactly. When I'm in the worst time, I'm like, oh God, like it's never gonna get better, and this, that, and the other, you know.

It's just trained me that like we just take it one day at a time, and if I maybe even one hour at a time, if I can get through work and if I can get home and I can get to a meeting, like I'll be okay for that day. The the change is so slow too. You know, I think that's also why I I always want that instant gratification, you know. I'm like, I just want to get better now.

I want to feel better now. And what I found with the steps, a all of it is that change happens so slowly. But it's but it's definitely worth it. It's a much more beautiful process.

SPEAKER_02 43:47 It's it's more sustainable. If you think about like weight loss, and you're like, I'm just gonna not eat for I don't know, a week. I'll have like broth only for a week. Or do some other things.

Or that it's like is it sustainable? Will it it will it will it sustain? And the drugs and alcohol are not sustainable, but this work and the outcome that we get from it, the program is a lifetime sustainable program. It's easier to stay sober than to get sober.

That's my experience. SPEAKER_00 44:25 Oh, a hundred percent, yeah. I mean, like, relapse isn't a part of my story, but like I know for me, like it can it gets plenty bad for me sober. I'll get stark raving crazy, you know, inside of Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, if I'm not trying to enlarge that spiritual life.

And and sometimes it's frustrating, but I I'm glad that I've had all the experiences that I've had. They make me the person that I am today. SPEAKER_02 44:49 All right. Well, I do have one final question.

Perfect. And that is for the listener who is suffering, what message would you like to leave them with? SPEAKER_00 45:04 Oh, that's good. For the person who's still suffering, that it takes what it takes and that everybody's bottom's different.

For me, I had reached darker bottoms than when I got sober, which I thought was weird. I had been in darker places, but for me, it took to a place of utter surrender, right? I had to accept that this was how I was gonna live my life for the rest of my life, and none of my ideas were gonna get me out of it anymore. The way I describe it is like a 1% change in willingness or perspective, right?

Like just that tiny little change to be like, maybe there's another way to live my life. That was my experience, was I just had that what because I was really stubborn when I came in. So I just had that 1% that maybe somebody else has the answer to this problem, not me. SPEAKER_02 45:53 For more information, read the first 164 pages of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous or visit keepcoming back.net.