vol 310. History Lesson: The Story of Dr. Bob & Anne Smith

SPEAKER_00 0:01 We believe the minister is easy. I'm here to bring you the voices of its members. Everyone that comes on the show, including myself, is an active member and has been on recovery in the rooms of AA. As you listen, please take what works for you and leave the rest.

SPEAKER_04 0:28 My sobriety date is June 4th, 1986. I'm very blessed to just be celebrating 40 years of sobriety. And I'm also a history buff, and I love talking about the history specifically of Alcoholics Anonymous and very specifically Dr. Bob.

My lineage goes back to him quite quickly. My first sponsor's name was Dick McNett, and uh his sponsor's name was Red Bates. And Red Bates was sponsored for a short time by Dr. Bob.

I have a very short lineage to the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't say that to boast. I don't say that to gloat. I say that because I have I have a responsibility, just like each and every one of us has a responsibility to carry the message.

I'm very blessed to have people in my life here in Akron, Ohio, outside of Akron. I live in Kent, but um I go to meetings in Akron. To be very blessed to have people and historians like me, and we can sit around and powwow and have conversations and speculate and do all kinds of stuff, which is kind of fun. I do have two home groups that might be a little bit much, but I have uh I'm a home group member at King School, which is the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I'm a home group member of Ken Friday Night, which is in walking distance to my house, and that's the fourth oldest meeting in AA.

So I'm very blessed to have the grounding that I have in Akron and in Alcoholics Anonymous. One thing that I'm going to do today is I'm going to talk about Dr. Bob, and I'm also going to talk about his wife Ann. We're going to do a little run through through history with with Dr.

Bob and Ann Smith. Um, one thing about history to qualify this talk is that especially with AA history, it's constantly evolving. More is revealed. We learn more as we go, more things get unearthed and and and things start to change.

Perfect example of that is uh the Washingtonian group, which was the group of non-drinkers before the Oxford group. We didn't know, we just knew that the Washingtonians existed, right? And for a time that's all we knew. And then just recently we discovered that there were six of them and they had names.

And we have those names now, and that's that's now in the records of Alcoholics Anonymous in the archives at Dr. Bob's house and and here in Akron at the Akron Archives. Getting back to that point is history's always evolving, history's always changing as we learn more and more is revealed and more discovered. Kind of just like our program, right?

The more is revealed, less becomes an option, or more becomes fact, however you want to say it. So that being said, let's all the listeners out there, if you would, just close your eyes and and take a take a breath and take a step back into the 1930s, into a kitchen on 855 Lardmore Avenue in Akron, Ohio, where the coffee was strong, ashtrays were full, and hope was just beginning to take root. This is the story of Dr. Bob and Ann Smith, their life in Akron and the message they carried.

Ann Smith was born in 1881. She was from the Ripley family from Oak Park, Illinois. Her father was big into the railroads. In fact, he owned the Santa Fe Railroad Company.

She was the oldest of four kids. She was the only girl, which probably helped her hone her skills when working with all the men that came to 855 Hardmore Akron, Ohio in the late 30s. Let's face it, being able to survive getting chased around the house by Edgar R. with a cleaver truly shows being able to handle situations which used to baffle us.

She fled from him, ran upstairs, and dropped to her knees saying the Lord's Prayer. That gave Bill Wilson enough time to wrestle the cleaver out of Edgar's hands. Years later, at Dr. Bob's funeral, Edgar showed up, and there he was sober.

Bill was happy to see him and later said that not much more than seeing Edgar sober had given him more satisfaction than AA. That said something, if you ask me. You know, the power of choice, the power of getting sober again, especially doing what had happened and all that going down and forgiveness just runs through all of that statement. That's really great.

How Ann and Bob met was there's an interesting connection with Vermont. I'm not sure if anyone's aware of that, but Roland Hazard was from Vermont. He got Eddie out of trouble, who was then exiled to Vermont by his family. He he was friends with Bill, who was from Vermont, Lois was from Vermont, Bob was from Vermont, and went to visit a friend for the summer and went to a school dance at Johnsbury, Vermont, and met Bob.

They met at a dance at Johnsbury Academy, which is where Bob went to school, and must have been very patient as well as resilient with men because of the uh whirlwind courtship Bob and Ann had. It was a 17-year whirlwind relationship. Ann and Bob got married in in 1915 and they eventually moved to Akron. At that time, Bob was sober nearly a year.

They married in Oak Hill at her mother's home. Anne either thought he was sober for good or she was just tired of waiting. Who knows? When Anne came to Akron, she got deeply involved in the early Oxford group movement when it arrived in the 1930s.

By 1933, she was dragging her drunken, guilt-laden husband to the meetings as well. Anne was a woman of deep faith. She read the Bible often. She was particularly fond of the books of James.

That's actually the shortest book in the Bible. In case you aren't familiar, it's the book that has the catchphrase in it, work faith without works is dead, and is taken from the Alcoholics Anonymous text. When Bob was on his game, they would often read the Bible together, despite many setbacks in life and the marriage, and pressed on even when Bob did not. Of course, that created challenges in marriage and in faith, but she weathered the storm.

At 56 and on the verge of cracking up in the course dealing with her two children, she started to smoke. To save money, she often rolled her own cigarettes. The kids, really distraught about their father who was drinking, did not like that their mother was smoking as well, and so they would often add pencil shavings to her tobacco. Wouldn't that make an interesting blend of tobacco?

Anne did have her flaws. She had some preconceived notions about Bob's mother, and blamed her mother-in-law for her husband's drinking. Perhaps it makes sense. Bob's mother was a church-going lady and really occupied herself with her social and religious activities at St.

John'sbury North Congressional Church. The kids didn't think very well of grandma either. They thought that she was an unfeeling woman. So Anne thought that as soon as Bob got free of his by the book upbringing, quote unquote, he was set free to be himself.

Her insecurities showed just like any other person who was desperate to help, control, justify, or whatever superlative he wanted. Anne would ask, not only ask, but frisk Bob when he came into the house. She would extract pledges from Bob that would barely last a day. Just like all alcoholics in the midst of their addiction, Bob was an expert at hiding and obtaining his supply, which would kind of lend itself if you've ever read Dr.

Bob in Good Old Timers. He often got the bootlegger to throw up his little bottle of gin up onto the flat roof that had accessed from his bathroom. If you ever go to Dr. Bob's house, you can see that there's actually a bottle sitting on the flat roof on the porch in the back door.

You can see it. Once Bob got sober for good in 1935, she saw the good in the giving of self and sacrifice required to help those afflicted with alcohol. She was grateful to have a sober husband and to show that gratitude through action. She often opened her house, the 855 Wardmore Akron, as a haven for alcoholics and their families.

She offered an endless supply of eight o'clock coffee. Another great thing Digi did was bring the Oxford Group teachings to her home too. Anne was the one who led quiet time sessions, or what's called two-weight prayer from the Oxford Group. Spiritual readings, the Bible studies geared for the early AA members.

Lots of people often thought it was Bob doing all of that. But remember, he had a physician's practice to rebuild, maintain, and of course the new drunks he encountered at the hospital. Often AAs would come to the house to see Bob. When Bob wasn't there, they would ask Ann about the books to read.

What books should we read in? That kind of thing. And would say, well, really, that should be an inspiration granted by God. But if you need to, but if you need something, here you go.

And she would write a list. One author that was always on that list was Stanley Jones. Jones was an American Methodist Christian ministry theologian and author. Say that ten times real quick.

American Methodist Christian missionary theologian and author. He's really remembered for his uh interreligious lectures to the educated classes in India. In fact, he spent most of his adult life in India. One of the things she did was keep a journal of spiritual guidance and encouragement for newcomers.

She was affectionately given the title of the mother of AA. One of the things that we're going to keep talking about as this continues to unfold is Bob and Ann read a lot of books. They were voracious readers. The collection of books that Bob read, most of the authors spent a long period of time, in fact, some of them, most of their adult life, in India, and they were studying that the Hindu Christian upbringings and ideologies.

I find that really fascinating. One of the things Bob and Ann did was that they never, I don't think I don't believe they ever one-dimensionalized God. They were always looking for new avenues and new approaches to find a spiritual experience and to understand God deeper. Bob, on the other hand, he was born in 1879.

And he was, like we said earlier, he was from St. Johnsburg, Vermont. He's known for his practical spiritual approach to sobriety and for personally working with over 5,000 alcoholics before his death in 1950. 5,000 alcoholics he touched.

But a lot went on before those 5,000 plus Rummies touched Dr. Bob's hand. In his youth, he was an active member of the Christian Endeavor, which is a Christian youth ministry. In that ministry, you were required to read the Bible, know the Bible to the point that you could teach it and help others.

I feel this is the foundation stones of that famous thing that Bob always said, love and service. Bob likely had a hard go of it at St. Johnsbury. He likely had to live a lot to live up to.

His father was Walter Perrin Smith. He was a judge, state attorney, and also a member of the state's legislature. We already know about his mother. Bob started drinking in 1888 at the age of nine.

So it is likely that he drank with guilt, but knew he was going against what he knew. Can anyone relate to that? I know I drank going against everything that I was taught and learned. I just did it.

Similarity to Bob. Bob started drinking heavily around 1902 at Dartmouth College. He was ahead of the alcoholic team already, residing in the fact that he wasn't alkie from the beginning of his drinking because he seemed to recover from the debauches much faster and easier than his classmates. He was actually somewhat prideful about that.

Bob then went to the University of Michigan for medical school, where he was a pre-med student at the time. This was 1905. But his drinking caught up to him, and in 1907, he took time off. In actuality, he he he actually dropped out of school.

He returned it to pass his exams for that year. It was strongly recommended that he transfer. It would have been interesting to hear the strongly worded conversation with the dean. So Bob headed to Rush University in Chicago.

It was close to hand anyway. His progression with alcoholism was careening out of control by then. And as a result, his drinking got so severe while there, the conditions got placed on him to graduate. First, he had to complete two additional quarters of school.

And on top of that, during those two quarters, he was required to stay sober. How they checked on him wasn't clear, but he must have pulled it off because he graduated in 1910. Bob struggled getting and staying sober. Before 1935, when his I'll give him 15 minutes became five and a half hours.

He came to Akin in 1912 already, very much a bad drunk. A lot of you might not know that quote that I put in as I was saying, I'll give him 15 minutes. That was what Bob said to Ann when Ann begged him to go to Henrietta Syblings to the gatehouse to speak to Bill. He wasn't ready to stop drinking quite yet, and he was busy, had a lot to do, and he basically said, I'll give him 15 minutes, and that turned into five and a half hours.

That was on uh May 12th of 35. Bob didn't originally set out to start a movement in Akron to help drunks. He came because of his medical career, and because, frankly, it was a good opportunity. After medical school in 1910, Bob sought a stable place to practice.

Akron, a booming rubber town, offered economic potential and a growing population in need of doctors. In addition to that, Bob likely felt a connection to his roots. He saw a chance to make money and have a stable life. A chance.

St. Johnsbury was steeped in congressional and Methodist tradition, emphasized morality, temperance, and community. The temperance movement aligned with Bob's conservative upbringing. Even though he was clearly living against it, Akron, particularly through groups like the Oxford group that started thriving in Akron around that time, also had a strong Christian evangelical presence, focusing on personal transformation and moral reformation.

Both towns promoted moral reform, personal responsibility, and religious life, which were central values in the early AA and in Bob. unknown 14:46 St. SPEAKER_04 14:47 Johnsbury at that time was also a boom town, steeped in a thriving economy. St.

Johnsbury had the Fairbanks Scales Company and Akron had the rubber company. The Fairbanks scale, in case you're wondering what that is, it's those big giant, like uh let's call them fish scales that they weigh in and they have the big dial on them with the huge needle. That's Fairbanks, those are the Fairbanks scales. And they were made in Johnsbury.

And Akron, of course, had the rubber companies. The nice thing about the similarities between the two towns was most, if not all, the people in Akron worked for the rubber companies. Most, if not all, of the members of St. Johnsbury worked for the Fairbanks Scales Company.

Both towns featured close-knit social structures where families had reputations, church attendance, and moral behaviors that mattered deeply. Dr. Bob, raised in such a community, would have found Akron's family and faith-oriented culture familiar and grounding. Despite Akron's large size, both communities held conservative views on drinking, behavior, and religion.

Respect for authority, distrust of the big city vice, and the focus on redemption were dominant in both areas. In my opinion, it's amazing how close to home we want to be, and yet when we start drinking recklessly, we ignore all that we know. We go against our own morals and values to drink with impunity and we never look back. At least I'll speak for myself.

If you're anybody like me, that that's a couple of those sentences should have hit home. Though different in size, St. John's very Akron shared a moral and cultural DNA rooted in Protestant ethics, industrial labor, and community life. These shared traits made Akron a spiritually and socially comfortable setting for Bob.

Akron wasn't just a career move, it was a place where he made the worst of it in drink, and it became the place where his path crossed with Bill Wilson in 1935 and where Alcoholics Anonymous is born. Lo and behold, Bob finally got married to Anne in 1915 and had roughly a year of dry time at that point, like I said. At one time, he may have even had over four years dry. So he wasn't in a constant state of drunkard.

He was really trying to correct the terrible wrong he knew he had. He knew he was powerless over alcohol and likely thought his life was not going the way he thought it should be going. His life was unmanageable and he knew it. He started going to the Oxford Group meetings in Akron in 1933.

He wasn't a huge fan favorite of the people in the group. He was he was often too drunk to go even go to the meetings or during the meetings. He often carried a small bottle of booze in his sock and made it through the days while working with with patients. He had stashes all over the house.

There were times when Bob had alcohol delivered to his house. Like I said, he was throwing it up on the top of the roof at the back door, and it was usually stuffed in a glove. Bob would go to the bathroom, which had the door to the roof access, and he would retrieve the booze, often hiding it in special areas above the laundry chutes and in the basements in the basement rafters. So Bob finally got sober in June 10th of 1935.

However, it wasn't, it really wasn't the time AA started. We use this sobriety date, at least here in Akron, we use this sobriety date as a date. But Bob and Bill met on Mother's Day of that year. That was actually May 12th, 1935.

That's when Bob said that famous line, in my opinion, that famous line, I'll give him 15 minutes. It was Mother's Day. It was real time when two drunks got together and shared with each other about their drinking. The power of identification relating to one another started on Mother's Day of 1935.

This day worked well for Bill. I suspect it worked best for him because he didn't show any signs of cocksuredness like he was when he was in New York. Remember, when he had come to Akron to do this takeover of this company, he hadn't gotten anybody sobered up yet. But he was walking around into bars and things and whatever you want to call it, drunk tanks, and said, I found spirituality or I found Jesus, you need to come along with me and stop instead of drinking.

And that wasn't well received. Like I said, he had come to Akron on a business deal and he was trying to represent a group who was there in the thralls of a hostile takeover for a tire machine machinery company, National Rubber Machinery Company. And if successful, he was promised a president title. The alcoholic ego is amazing at the time.

Bill looked to make a lot of money on that deal. The deal fell through, and it was at that point that I feel Bill was in an emotional bottom. He had nothing left. He couldn't even afford his balance due at the Mayflower Hotel.

So so many failed ventures for Bill had turned into dust, and he had nothing left. So when he made that call and we went down that list of clergy at the Mayflower Hotel, he was humble. And I think he spoke a different language to Bob, and Bob picked up on that. In one of Bob's last significant talks, I believe it was 1948 in Detroit.

He spoke about he said he was intrigued by what the man had to say about service and giving of self. And for Bob, in in my understanding and my experience with learning about uh Bob Smith, that word intrigue kind of represents an awakening or an epiphany for him. It probably led him back to his Christian endeavor days when he was when he was understanding the Bible, teaching the Bible, and helping others. It probably probably was one of those aha moments for him.

I absolutely could be wrong. There's very little record of anything like that, but that's that sentence sticks with me. I was intrigued by what the man had to say about service and giving of self. That's an interesting statement.

Anyway, I think either the way Bill presented himself or it something in his voice represented something different to Bob than what the Oxford group was teaching him. He didn't stay sober there though on May 12th. At that point, um Henrietta Cyberling put Bill up in the Portage Country Club for a little bit, and then he went and moved in with Bob and Ann for a period of around three months, maybe a little bit longer. And Bob then had to go on to a uh medical convention in Atlantic City.

And he went on a prodigious bender on the actually, I think on the train ride out to Atlantic City. So he he really wasn't even sober for the convention. He returned to Ohio and somehow ended up at his nurse's house in Cyaco Falls. And sent Bill over there to pick him up.

And then Bob disappeared. And he set out to do something that he was paralyzed with fear to do. He went out and made amends to patients for his and his wrongdoings uh while they were under his care. That's a pretty big statement.

A pretty built bold thing to do for a doctor to expose himself that much. He performed surgery. And diagnosis is while drunk, admitting that he admitting that could mean ruin to him. So, like I said, it was a big deal.

But he knew he must. He removed the drink question from his equation. And although he was not totally relieved of the desire to drink on that day, he never drank again. And that was June 10th, 1935.

Bob looked for the good with a capital letter. Bob knew that the good lord was the way. He also looked for new avenues for God. Bob was a voracious reader.

He had many books on spirituality. At this time, right now, at Dr. Bob's house in the library that we have, there are some 600 books, and that's growing. If you ever go to 855 Ardenmore and Akron, you'll see many books laying around the house.

Imagine over 600 books laying around on the floor of the house. Imagine. That would be messy. I think uh I think in the attic he had shelves where he kept all of his books.

That's I'm speculating. He had a third-floor attic up there, and that's the the cleaning lady would stay there at times. He had some books on the temperance movement, prohibition, uh, books about the Washingtonians. He had many groups written by officer group members as well as the books used by officer group meetings.

He had many books on Christian teachings, James Allen, Henry Drummond, Fostic, and Emmett Fox, to name a few. All of these books had a theme about them, about knowing the Bible and helping others. Similar to his Christian endeavor upbringings, he read all of Emmett Fox, Emmett Fox's books of scientific Christianity and scientific prayer. That interests Bob since he could relate so easily to being a doctor or scientist himself.

Fox stressed the idea of not asking for things in prayer, rather than exalting God for who he is. Not was or could be, but who he is. Prayer in the present moment. God does not live in the past or the future, he lives in the now.

He was also a big advocate of Henry Drummond. If you were sponsored by Bob, you read The Greatest Thing in the World. Uh side note here, I was I was 1986. I'm sitting on the porch of uh my sponsor's house.

He and Red Bates are there, my grand sponsor, his sponsor. And we were sitting there drinking sweet tea, and it was a hot day, and they were talking about Bob, and they were talking about that book called The Greatest Thing in the World by Henry Drummond. And uh I was told that I should read it. I was I was coming up on a year, I wasn't quite a year sober.

And then Red looked at me and said, Mark, you should read that book, it'll change your life. All I was thinking of at the time. I was I was 18 then, and I was just I was out of tea, and I was trying to figure out how I could break into the conversation to ask for more tea, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. When when my sponsor passed away, I was uh giving his eulogy and I was standing at the pulpit, I said uh Dick was the only person that I truly loved for who he was.

And uh I paused there for a minute and tears started to flow out of my eyes, and and that was simply because I had said that statement to 300 people, and in that audience was my daughter, my then wife, my mother, my father, Dick's whole family. I was telling them basically that I love them for who I wanted them to be, not for who they were. And I remembered right then and there as I put my head down on the pulpit and picked myself back up and pulled myself together and said in front of everybody, I just wanted to let you know that I love everyone for who you are. When I got done with that eulogy, I immediately went out and bought that book.

I was 19 years sober when I bought that book and I read it. So it took me 19 years to read that book. I would highly recommend that if you get that book, don't wait 19 years to read it. Uh a woman came to Dr.

Bob uh and she was struggling with her faith and her spirituality, and Dr. Bob literally wrote her out a prescription to read that book by Henry Drummond every day once a week for three months and come back and see him. And she did that, and she came back and she said it changed her life. That's pretty exciting, if you ask me.

And and I read that book. I have people that I work with read that book. I read that book with them. I read that book every year around my anniversary.

I also read that Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox on my anniversary as well. Um, I'm always trying to to grow and understand God in a bigger reason, in a bigger fashion. And I like to read the books. And I don't I don't short sight myself, of course, but but I always uh I always like to read the books that influenced and went into the writing of the big book.

And and those are two of those books. They all talk about our character and how to improve them. And that's what the big book is, exactly. You know, the there's a lot of talk about how six and seven get, you know, there's only two paragraphs dedicated to six and seven.

So I've even heard some people say maybe we don't need to emphasize that too much. And and as I understand this history, this history that I'm reading and and this history that I've been studying, and and um as I understand the big book now through my own reading, I understand that the the that Bill Wilson didn't need to spend a whole lot of time talking about our character defects and our character and our behaviors, because he wrote an entire book based on our character, how to recognize the flaws in our character, and how to improve it, how to improve them. He wrote 164 pages dedicated to our character. And that is the magic.

You know, that's that's the mystery that that I have figured out over 40 years. It's it's a beautiful thing. Here's a little fun fact that might not know about Bob. Bob was also a 32nd level Freemason.

Um, he had the title The Keeper of the Secrets. He was required to go beyond his knowing. When he took that, he took part in psychic readings at times, and and and he was around seances that Oxford group members often had, not at the Oxford group meetings, but they had them outside of the of the of the groups. Uh Bob and Bill were both both mystics.

There's actually documentation that that kind of confirms Bill was a mystic. It's not so much Bob. I think it's more implied with Bob. This is this is, of course, I'm interjecting my opinion and my fandom for Dr.

Bob, so to speak. But um he never one-dimensionalized God. He read many books on the occult, Native American Sufism, book on psychic life, books about the psychic life of Jesus. Bill Wilson sent him and he sent him and Bob kept it at Ouezy board.

Even if he never used it, it was in his possession. You know, like I said, what does this all mean? I believe believe Bob went beyond his Christian roots. Was he a Christian?

Yes. Was he open-minded to new thought and new ideas from outside Christian beliefs? That's also yes. But like I said, Bob did not one-dimensionalize God.

And every time I make that statement, I ask myself, do I? You know, am I one-dimensionalizing, or am I always constantly evolving and expanding my understanding of God and keeping God bigger? You know, uh, there's this there's a statement that um my friend in Texas says, God take me to different. Am I allowing God to take me to different?

You know, I I ask myself that a lot. One of the things that I've learned in the second step through all of this history and and reading and and understanding where I'm promised that, you know, my greatest and deepest understanding of God today can become my biggest liability tomorrow if I allow it, if I fail to enlarge my spiritual condition, if I if I fail, if I keep one-dimensionalizing God, I always need to expand. Let's talk about for a minute the AA message, the the Bill and Bob, so to speak, uh ideology of AA. When AA was new, there wasn't one neatly package meshes like we have today.

In fact, the acronym New York groups were different, had different emphasis. Dr. Bob's style had flair, likely stemming from his roots in the Christian endeavor. Again, reading the Bible, knowing the Bible to teach it, helping others.

Bob did not use the word Jesus when surrendering. Clarence Snyder, which is one of uh Bob's favorite sponsees, he did. But he did say his heavenly father, the good lord, or the greater power. Bob's style of AA, or what we call Bob AA, is heavily rooted in Christian principles from the Oxford group.

It has a strong focus on personal surrender to God, daily Bible readings and prayer as essential practices. Sponsorship began immediately. That's important. Sponsorship began immediately.

Newcomers often moved into sober members' homes. Moral inventory was taken early, sometimes within hours of meeting. T and Clarice Henry uh Williams' house. It's on uh oh my gosh, my friend's gonna kill me.

Um it's in Akron anyway. And my friend actually bought it. He owns it. He and I got sober together.

We both had 40 years, and uh that house has a power. And that he went upstairs to the in it at their house, at T. Henry's house. He went upstairs and and you did all of these things that I just read.

Um, you know, you you gave yourself to your creator right then and then that was before you went down to the meeting that is on the bottom floor of the house. Bill Wilson style, or Bill AA, still influenced by the Oxford group, but with a broader, more spiritual, not strictly Christian language. Steps evolved into more flexible wording to appeal to a wider audience, less immediate pressure for newcomers to declare religious commitment before beginning recovery. Both Bob and Bill were some quote-unquote mystics.

And you know, if you want to, you can you can challenge that if you want, that's fine. Bill had a vision of where AA was and was going, and Bob knew how to get it there. Like I said, touching 5,000 souls lends itself to some sort of mystic ideology. These differences, though, you know, the Bill AA and Bob AA, these differences weren't conflict.

Um, they were two expressions of the same route, later blended into the AA program we know today. Just before Bob passed, and as the big book was being written and created, and and they they took the idea ideologies of the of the Oxford group and improved it. Um the 12 steps became the driving force of recovery. Sponsorship became very important.

Uh Clarence, the guy I mentioned earlier, that one of Bob's favorite sponsees, wrote the first sponsorship pamphlet. I feel that the fellowship of AA really began to mature and thrive because of the blending of the two styles of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Another really cool thing that um Bob and Ann did actually was they they commissioned some pamphlets. We we conveniently call them the Akron pamphlets today.

In the early 1940s, Bob was concerned that the early the early blue-collar worker might not fully understand the big book. Um he wanted something that simplified the teaching of the big book to newcomers, and it and it needed to be something in writing, something that they could take home and study. So Bob and Ann commissioned Evan Williams, and Williams created five pamphlets outlining the program. The work took about five years to complete.

Uh, these pamphlets provided a simple uh direct guide to newcomers, practical instructions, not just theory. They emphasized prayer, Bible study, and house-to-house work. They also described the Oxford Group influences, influence steps they were using at the time. The names of these pamphlets are the first one was called The Manual.

In it, there was a suggested slash quote unquote required reading list. Alcoholics Anonymous was one of them. The Greatest Thing in the World by Henry Drummond, Unchanging Friend, that was a series by the Bruce Publishing Company, As a Man Thinketh by James Allen, Surround the Mom by Emmett Fox, The Self You Have to Live With by Winford Rhodes, Psychology of a Christian Personality by Lingon, Abundant Living by East Stanley Jones, who we've talked about earlier, The Man Nobody Knows by by Barton. These were all books that were required reading.

Basically, when you were got sober in the 40s, you were handed a stack of books. If people would have handed me a stack of books, uh in fact, all the young people, young people movement in the in eight in the late 80s, I guess over when I was 17, we'd have hit the door running. We would have. I mean, I'm not reading that.

Oh my goodness. What's the difference between then and now? Well, there wasn't television back then. There certainly wasn't smartphones.

They got all of their information by reading, you know, so to be handed a stack of books in the 1940s and said asked to read them wasn't a big deal for them as it is might be today. The second reader talks about balance. Uh, and in that pamphlet, there's a there's a uh diagram of a cross. And when we first come into AA, you know, the cross is a skew, right?

One one of the arms of the cross is is expanded because it's and it's marked AA, because we're we're trying to get sober, we're trying to do all this work, and and so our our cross becomes out of balance. And the idea is in from in the second reader is to start learning how to balance your life again, because it's all out of balance when we're drinking and when we're getting sober, etc. etc. And that pamphlet really came from a book called What Men Live By.

On the cover of that book is the actual cross that they use in the second reader as a diagram and as an explanation. Um, kind of a cool little aside. The third reader was called Spiritual Milestones and Alcoholics Anonymous. It has an emphasis on realizing that God is your father and you are his child, and that you can look to him for the help that you need.

Each day's plan should be made with God's guidance, asking that his will be done, not ours or yours. One should gain through quiet time reading the Bible and daily surrendering prayer and a personal relationship with God. I have an understanding that um most likely Anne has some influence in the spiritual milestones pamphlet. Like I said, she was the one that led the quiet time sessions, the two-way prayer sessions.

She was the one that did the daily Bible readings with others around the daily surrender. She led that stuff at Dr. Bob's house at the house. So although Anne was not credited as a co-author, her influence is indirect, is very strong.

Like I said, she was the one that held the quiet time gatherings. Um her journal, known today as Ann Smith's Journal, and you can get that Dick B wrote it, contains many of the same ideas reliance on God, confession, restitution, service that show up almost word for word in the spiritual milestones pamphlet. So it's a lot of the notes that she took show up in that pamphlet. Early A's and Akron often said Anne's teaching and hospitality were central to their spiritual formation.

So again, Anne probably did not have a direct editorial role in writing in spiritual milestones. Her spiritual guidance and written material clearly, clearly shaped the pamphlet's contents. In a sense, she had a voice without a byline. Then there was the guide to the 12 steps.

It was basically a what do you want to say? A cliff notes version of the 12 steps. And then later on, the fifth pamphlet is called the speaker manual. The cool thing about the uh speaker manual is uh I think I think I'm not 100% sure.

I I'm paraphrasing here at this point right now. My memory's lapsing, I'm getting older. I'll use that as the excuse. But it does talk about you know showing up, dressing up, speaking at the podium, speaking clearly, using your voice, all this stuff.

But in between, like every second paragraph or so, there's big words in the pamphlet. It says be brief. Then it says a little bit more of information, what you should do, and then it says be brief. So the idea here is to, and when you're doing a talk, is to be brief.

I have trouble following that. I can tell you as I'm doing this talk right now. I'm not being brief, but oh well. When we look back at Dr.

Bob and Ann Smith, I believe we see more than historical figures. We see a husband and a wife who turned their homes into a hospital for broken souls. We see a program that was first lived before it was ever written down. And we see that from Akron to New York and beyond for that matter, the message was and still is one of willingness, honesty, open-mindedness, and a higher power who can restore us.

One last thing, the one thing that Bob says in that last talk I was talking about in 1948 in Detroit, I and it's very profound for me, and it's something that I that I keep in my head all the time. And he said, I don't think we can do anything very well in this world unless we practice. And then he quite frankly said, and I don't believe we do AA too well unless we practice. The fellows who win great world awards in athletic events are people who practice, have been practicing for years and still have to practice.

To do a good job in AA, there are a number of things we should practice. We should practice, as I've said, acquiring a spirit of service. We should attempt to acquire some faith, which isn't easily done, especially for the person who has always been very materialistic, following the standards of society today. But I think faith can be acquired.

It can be acquired slowly, it must be cultivated. That was not easy for me, and I assume that it's very difficult for everyone else. Thank you. SPEAKER_00 40:19 Thank you, Mark.

I thought there was gonna be some more things that we must practice. So spirit of service and faith, which then must be cultivated. Was there something else that we need to practice, or did I catch them all? SPEAKER_04 40:33 No, you caught them all.

I think that's you caught them all. I I mean I believe that I I know we haven't started our QA session, but this is it. All right. You know, if if we do that, you know, I know that in my experience, and I'm sure and and you know, listening to your podcast and listening to what you have to say, I know you believe this.

Is if we practice those things, those those very basic things, gosh, my life just expands exponentially. It's absolutely exciting every day. And and there's struggles. I mean, you know, I'm I'm going through some struggles right now, or or I'm working on my idea of status and how it doesn't exist anymore, you know, that kind of thing.

And that I need to give that up to God and and just be. If we're willing and we're open and we we keep trudging along and practicing as as Bob said, gosh, my life just gets better and better and better. SPEAKER_00 41:28 You talked about step six and seven. I really liked what you said.

And you know, there's one way to look at it. There's only two paragraphs, or there's 164 pages, actually. But I do want to say that chapters six and seven and the twelve and twelve are really underrated. We should talk about them all the time.

They're so well written and should be read every single June and July. What do you have to say about that? SPEAKER_04 42:05 Well, I'll open with I agree with you. Um, that is, you know, those essays and those examples that that that Bill wrote are beautiful and they're wonderful and they're very well written.

And uh I unfortunately, you know, Bob never really got to experience that book. And I think he would have been very happy to to have experienced it. Um but yes, absolutely. I those every June and July they should be read.

I I 100% agree with you. I think too, if you read the big book with a complete open mind, and the 12 and 12 with a complete open mind, you will you definitely will see how both books talk about our character, how to recognize the flaws, and how to improve it. You know, and that's I I I know I beat that with like a dead horse, but that's that's really at its core. That's what the big book about Valzon is, and that's what the 12 and 12 teaches us, especially the how to recognize the flaws.

And I know it because I get it, you know, I get that that you know feeling in my gut. Oh, I don't know if I'm doing this right. I need to take a pause and figure this out. SPEAKER_00 43:18 For those that are like-minded, when our behavior is not matching our values, and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous provides if we want to help ourselves to an array of values.

So if we adopt them, let's say that I'm talking about those in the rooms that have adopted or are in the process or want to adopt the values of the program. That was a lot of words to get to what I'm about to say. But essentially, there's such a cognitive dissonance from when our behavior is not matter. those values that for me it comes with this massive amount of shame and and then I have to I have to do something I have to um realign myself when I met my husband we were dating and I said I love lifelong learning I always want to become a better person and he was like oh I'm very happy with who I am and how I am and I'm not changing at all we're still married but the point is for me when it's not matching it impacts every facet of my life when my husband's behavior doesn't match his values he just realigns and it's fine it's not a big deal anyways I'll I'll stop talking and see if anything came through that makes sense yeah I mean what you're approaching and and and talking about is you know and and gosh you know all the listeners and and and you tarot that don't think that I'm some spiritual giant or that you know I have my shit together or anything like that.

SPEAKER_04 45:12 I've wrestled with antagonism about the Alcoholics Anonymous program for 40 freaking years. I have scoffed at things I have not done things I've been I've been the poster child for what not to do in AA uh but I'm always learning even in what we would call negativity I'm always in a state of learning well that didn't work out so well so let's take a new avenue just take a new approach and and I and I touched on that during my talk here I talked about the the greatest thing in the world and and when I finally lowered my pride in my wrestling of antagonism to get that book when I finally read it I did what what Bob told that woman to do and I I started reading it once a week for three months and about halfway through that process there's a there's a um analysis of love. What what that book is is a uh Paul's first letter to the Corinthians the book the and it's about verse 13 the one of love the book about love you can have faith to move mountains but if you haven't love you are nothing you hear it at weddings all the time and he does a wonderful breakdown of of that verse and in that analysis that he does he lists nine characteristics of love which for an alcoholic like me is simplifies it because you know love is this enormous umbrella that nobody can grasp for him to break it down into nine elements I was like oh this I can do this right so you know and I'm gonna pair I don't have it right in front of me so I don't I can't rattle them all off but one of them is good temper. One of the characteristics of love that he says is good temper.

The other one is guilelessness which is thinketh no evil I work on that one daily by the way um kindness sincerity humility yeah these these words this they resonate and about halfway through that process I started looking at that list and I go son of a gun I I didn't say son of a gun I said something more explicitly I won't say that here that's my character I can do that I can live by that character and suddenly there was a big shift in the way I did things and you know I'm I'm 20 years sober at the time 19 and and there's a big shift suddenly I'm not putting all of my energy into my character defects and how to change them I'm focusing on my character and acting accordingly and boy my life has elevated to new levels each and every time I I I work on that you know and that's that's really great and and reason why long story short why I did all that was because if you go to like page I don't know um 83 in the big book where it's talking about uh when we're making events amends and stuff you know there's a list in there too we should be sensible tactful considerate humble there's one of the words that I just talked about and avoid being servile and scraping having having a good temper and and and having some some good thoughts these words I mean they're they're there for a reason. Like I said these books influence the writing and the the understanding of the big book as they were as Bill and Bob were sitting down and talking now of course Bob was Bill was the one that wrote it but you know Bob there's a lot of speculation that Bob shouldn't even be a considered a co-founder because he didn't do anything about the big book. But well you know they sat around for three months at 855 Lardmore and Akron reading spiritual books and Bill listened to that and he took all that information and created this big book that we call Alcoholics Anonymous. SPEAKER_00 48:43 Well I think that Bob tempered Bill and his desire to write artistically and poetically if you read the big book and you read the 12 and 12 to me as a as a professional writer I can tell that it came from a different person even though it is the same person.

There was no Dr. Bob editing reading revising let's not say it like that Bill it's not the Bible we don't need to talk in parables like just say it how it is there was none of that in the 12 and 12 if you read step 12 in the 12 and 12 it is not to badmouth the 12 and 12 but like it is absurd. He goes on so many tangents he's not talking about step 12 he decided to talk about the whole fucking program in one chapter there was no Dr. SPEAKER_03 49:39 Bob to temper him right you picked up on that huh I did.

SPEAKER_04 49:45 Yeah I agree I I I agree you know and that's you know my my sponsor Dick he he would always say that uh the one thing about about uh Bob was that if if Bob had his way AA would be a speakeasy and if Bill had his way a would be in lights I love that that's so good. SPEAKER_00 50:07 Right it's so good. Let's talk about I'm sorry what's up no go ahead let's talk about that let's talk about the first meeting so you have two home groups because you're an overachiever I get it I I can relate um the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and the fourth meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and you talked about um the history constantly evolving because we get new information uh but I imagine those meetings have evolved in the last almost hundred years let's let's hear what you've seen in your time and what you just know from from being a part of those groups. SPEAKER_04 50:49 I know that that king school is there's is that the fourth meeting is no king school is the first one okay so that that's the meeting that when when Bill Dotson AA number three got sober that that basically we we call that the that's the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous you know that's because they finally figured out that this worked bill Bill Dotson got it because his his sobriety day was uh June 24th I think about 20 days after after after or about 20 14 days after Bob and after a while they were going to T Henry's house of course there there that was called the drunk squad and they got bigger and they moved back over they moved into to Bob's house and you know I don't know if you've ever been over to 855 Ardmore but could you imagine house built in the early 1900s have 75 people in the living room of that house that's crazy.

Yeah it was chaos so Bill Dotson went outside and got permission to open up the meeting at uh at the the school which is right down from Bob's house not but maybe it might be a 10 minute walk from Bob's house and it's called King School it's called King School's Akron learning it's called a learning center now so it's called King School King Learning Center said it's King School. So and then the group number one which was at Bob's house moved into what's now King School if you look in the meeting announcement guide it for Akron it says king school group number one so it's been around for 91 years but it it moved into King what's called King School in the early 40s and then left for a while went to a church and then it came back to school they tore down the old school and built a new one and actually very graciously the Akron Public Schools petitioned our King School group to come back to King School. They wanted us back yeah it was very nice it was very nice of them and since we moved back into that school in in 2014 um and and if you ever come I don't know how many times I've said that to you how many times I said you should come just in this talk alone I will come I promise if you if you ever come you know like we can you can come into that school and you can you can see the uh they made a mural out of a really cool mural of a of a giving of a giving tree I think it's called out of some of the stained glass that used to be in the old school they took the big sandstone king school signage and put it over the main office entrance to the main office. The precipices over the stage are the original ones that were in the stage at the old school you can actually stand in the area the general area of where the speaker would be standing when he was doing a talk back in the 40s they can actually show you that it's kind of cool.

You can meet people like Gail LaCroix she's here always in the summer she's Akron's basically Akron's first archivist really put Akron archiving on the map and then of course you can go to Bob's house if you wanted to you can go to the grave you can do all that stuff and the neat thing about Camp Friday that's been my home group King School has only been my home group for a number of years maybe half my sobriety and it's I've been on again off again I would stop coming for a while and you know and then come back and you know back and forth. But Camp Friday night has been my home group for 40 years. I've never not gone to that meeting my sponsor strongly suggested no he told me that that was going to be my home group that was 1986 and that's why I saw him get his 30 year coin that night that was the first night I signed the book that's how I identified with Dick McNett. You know we talked about that power of identification and you know I was 17 years old and Dick had just retired from working and uh he got sober in 56 and I got sober in 86.

So the chances of uh Dick McNt and I drinking alike was very slim. But the idea there is I saw him get his 30 year chip and right then and there I wanted to know how to get that chip and I would do whatever it took to get it. You know and sometimes I fell flat on my face like I've talked about earlier and I have not been the the poster child of AA and and I've basically represented what you shouldn't do in AA at times. But you know I got that coin 10 years ago and now I'm living on God's grace without question.

And I know that in his mercy and that's it's a beautiful thing. And you know and going back to that the history part of it the can't Camp Friday nights I actually have uh I keep it for our group in my house the actual log book from the moment it started until 1968 or so oh yeah and you can you can see all the members that were home group members like Bill Van Horn he's known as the ward of the court in the first edition of the big book that's his story. He was one of the founders of our home group at Camp Friday night he lived about two blocks from my parents' house I actually knew some of those guys Alex Marconi and and Van Horn I was a kid I didn't know what I was getting into then but they gave out full candy bars during during Halloween so we made sure we always went to their house. Oh I love that mark but uh there's history in there like Dr.

Bob spoke at the first meeting at Camp Friday night and and I know that he hooked the heel of his boot on the back of a chair and he was known for that and he he read Matthew the out of the Bible and then they discussed it at Camp Friday and that was the first meeting and it's written in the book. It's written what they did like um uh Reverend Powell who wrote the golden books all the golden books in AA he spoke at Camp Friday night the Reverend Tonks if you're familiar with that that's the guy that I'm not familiar with any of this name dropping you're doing but I appreciate your love for it. Yeah thank you you know William Tonks and he's the guy that Bill called he was the last one on the list tons got him in touch with Henrietta Sirving and he and eventually they met Bob Reverend Tonks spoke at the seventh anniversary of Camp Friday night just there's things like that and just you just you go through the book and you just it's it's just a history lesson in itself like holy cow look at this look at there's Bill Thomas and there's this there's this person there's this oh my goodness you know you know it's like a who's who of the first edition are there any speaker tapes of Bill or Bob uh yeah you can get his 1948 talk Bob's 48 talk in Detroit it's it's published you can probably download it it's a wonderful it's a wonderful talk i we play an edited version of it at um dr bob's house at the library which is actually at a separate house we call it's one 122 Everett Road it's right behind it and it's it's on loot on the TV there and that every time I go over there I sit down and I play that it's about 10 minutes and I sit there and just sit in quiet for 10 minutes and listen to to Dr. Bob's talk.

And it's it's it's really nice. And and of course you can listen to Bill Wilson's 1950 convention talk it's it's pre it's there. SPEAKER_00 58:26 Yeah they're out there you just gotta find them I have some I could I could send them to you if you really if you have do you have a CD player still no that is the whole reason we created keep coming back was because people don't have cd players anymore they certainly don't have tape players uh so we need we need somehow to get they probably have them on a sobercast YouTube 100 so yeah I just need to do the research but and if you go to Akron AA's website there's a section in there where it says uh talks and there's a bunch of local acron old timers that are are recorded right on our website nice yes yeah just a couple more questions you said that Bob between like July or May rather of 35 and June of 35 you said you know you talked about him going on that bender and you quickly mentioned and I recalled this fact that he wasn't relieved of the obsession to to drink right away can you give us um a bit of history on on that experience for Bob Dr. SPEAKER_04 59:41 Bob well I I I'm not a hundred percent sure that he ever fully got over the urge not to drink.

But he knew that it wasn't it wasn't the answer for him and he knew how to get relief from that from that urge and that was through an understanding of God and the good lord as he would say you know anytime he was in question or anytime he some somebody questioned something you know he would say what's the good book say or what would the good lord say or things and little phrases like that. It was a guidepost for him. It was always and I think for if if you want me to speculate there a little bit I think that that urge to drink for him not going away it was was a way for Bob always to remember his roots and where he came from and he was a big big believer in in his roots and where he came from and and where he's going now that was kind of a big deal. SPEAKER_00 1:00:40 Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41 And I do love speculating that's why it makes it more fun so uh forget the facts man speculate you know you said 5,000 alcoholics and I'm such an alcoholic I'm like that's it only 5,000 right some is good more is better but that is remarkable five five thousand from nineteen thirty five to nineteen fifty that's and I would say I would say probably more like 1948. I don't know how much he was doing uh in 49 and 50 because he was at that point was really suffering greatly from cancer. Yeah um so I I'm not sure how many I'm I'm sure he helped people but majority of it was from 35 to at least probably well I'll just say 1950 but but I would speculate 48. And he worked very closely with Sister Ignatia as well.

That's a whole that's a whole nother talk when first some somebody's got one out there about Sister Ignatia and what she did and and how those two work together to form the first quote unquote you know not the first but uh a a a detox unit on in St. SPEAKER_00 1:01:52 Thomas so yeah maybe we'll do that one next right I mean yeah you better start prepping your material oh my goodness now you now you're putting so much pressure oh my gosh but I mean you know 5000 5000 souls that's you know there was only a hundred there wasn't even a hundred when the big book was written so it's amazing it's remarkable it's not just touching 5,000 with posting an episode of keep coming back it is literally boots on the ground touching 5,000 souls so it is remarkable it's amazing I I 100% agree with you and that you know that's that's one of the things that I don't take lightly okay so we are at the end this is a unique um you know story of Dr. Bob and Anne but I still gonna ask my final two questions is there anything that you are thinking of now or that you left out that you would like to share for those those listening if you haven't come to Akron please come to Akron. SPEAKER_04 1:03:03 You know get hooked up with myself or somebody at a meeting and and have them take you around to all the sites in Akron.

We just moved our intergroup office we have a brand new huge new archive now that actually looks like a a gallery and a museum rather than what it used to look like. The new intergroup office is within walking distance to Bill Dotson's grave which is a like I said is AA number three. You can then drive over to Dr. Bob's house and and you might find me and you might you might be able to get into the library and I can show you all the books that I talked about on in this talk and they really do exist and he really did read them and and uh go to his grave and see his his gravesite and see his daughter's gravesite and um go to the Mayflower go to the gatehouse at at Stan Hewitt Hall where it where Bill and Bob met you can pass the Portage Country Club you know you can see the Reverend Tonks rectory where he used to live and you know just all all these things they're they're all here and you oh and if you if you get a hold of me I can take you to T Henry's house but like I said Palisades.

Yeah I remember the road is Palisades Road it's off of Merriman and you know you can go to T Henry's house and you can walk through that house my friend very gracious so yeah come experience what I talked about it brings the the written work and the spoken work to life to see it all happen. And on top of that come to the second weekend in June come to Founders Day which is the biggest convention of AA every year hands down come come come experience Akron. SPEAKER_00 1:04:48 I love that mark and I love that it's like the Bethlehem of AA and just the magic you feel it and experience it and you want others to experience that that magic just like we want people to experience the magic of sobriety so I I appreciate you mentioning it um with detail there. SPEAKER_04 1:05:10 You know and I and I guess one more thing it just popped in there I I know I rattled off a bunch of books and and I can actually send you the list if you want it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20 Yeah I'll post it with a story. SPEAKER_04 1:05:22 I will um I would strongly suggest like I said read Greatest thing in the world by Henry Drummond but I would also suggest that one reads Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox. And if you read Emmett Sermon on the Mount by Emmett Fox after you read it go back to chapter five and reread chapter five in the big book. SPEAKER_00 1:05:41 It's Emmett Fox almost verbatim you know I have read Sermon on the mound and I know people maybe I need to read it again people love it and I cannot tell you what was in it.

Like I don't I can't tell you for sure it's impacted my life. But you know what has is the golden key. Emmett Fox's The Golden Key. It is an essay.

It's a couple pages. Much like Sermon on the Mound. It's not like a whole well Sermon on the Mound's a whole book. I think I read like a whole book on Sermon on the Mound.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:16 But there's a lot of it's a breakdown of Matthew. Right. It's a breakdown of Matthew. SPEAKER_00 1:06:20 There's a chapter um an expert uh excerpt of that.

Anyways, the Golden Key. I'm going to put a plug-in for the golden key. You can get it on Amazon for a couple bucks. And it is something I remember all the time.

It's an applicable tool that I can pull out of my toolbox and use it. SPEAKER_04 1:06:43 100% agree. SPEAKER_00 1:06:44 I didn't get that from Sermon on the Mountain, but maybe you can tell us now like what is a tool or something that you carry with you still from that book Sermon on the Mountain. SPEAKER_04 1:06:55 Oh I I the the whole idea of scientific prayer that that God is not living in the past nor in the future.

He's right here with me right now right here right now. Another thing that is a big takeaway in Sermon on the Mount that I've got I mean now let me like I said I I said in my talk is that I read that book every year at my anniversary so I've read it oh and then and I read it with with people that I work with when they're reading it. I have them read it to you and we read it together. So I've read it a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24 Yeah. SPEAKER_04 1:07:25 The greatest thing is that you know God is in the present moment. God is right here right now He doesn't live in the past or the future. He lives right here in the moment and that's why we we need to be in the moment with him.

He also starts to touch on the idea that we can't seek something that's already there. That goes directly in do I want to say opposition of the 11 steps right saw through prayer meditation you continue praying only for God's will and the power to carry that out you know all that stuff. And then it says he basically says you can't seek what's already there. Oh and then Richard Rohr a theologian from our time which is also recent he reinforces that and he can't pray and ask for something to be there that's always been there all along so so what am what am I seeking then in the 11th step in my in in my experience what am I seeking now in the 11th step and and that's where I'm at Fox comes full circle comes back and and what I'm during doing is learning how to uh quiet my opinionated voice.

You know because you know when I have an opinion you're you're damn sure going to know it right and uh limit my ego diminish my ego and stop listening to my self-willed mind that's full of lofty ideas and misguided emotions that's expressed in those in that book. And boy that's something you know when I when I think about that not listening to my self-willed mind that's full of lofty ideas and misguided emotions. I I mean I'll be flat out honest I I've I read Sermon on the mount a lot like I said and I know the book pretty well and I'll read the book and I'll know what's coming and I'll throw it because I know I'm not currently practicing it. SPEAKER_00 1:09:10 Keep coming back Mark keep coming back.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12 Right? SPEAKER_00 1:09:13 Keep coming back that's exactly right oh this has been such a privilege such a privilege um we have come to our final question for the listener who is suffering what message do you want to leave them with you know I I thought about that uh as I was listening to the pot your podcast because this is always that question and I'm I'm gonna quote a uh not qu maybe not quote but I'm gonna I'm gonna quote very badly a good longtime member of Alcoholics Anonymous who's still alive here in Akron his name is Tom and um he says do not leave one hour one minute or one second before the miracle happens for more information read the first 164 pages of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous or visit keepcomingback.net